Novel Discussion Board #2: 1984 Part 2

Room above shop“The paperweight was the room he was in, and the coral was Julia’s life and his own, fixed in a sort of eternity at the heart of the crystal.”   1984, Part II, Chapter IV

Find one or two quotes from Part II (and embed them into your response), which illustrates the difference in ideologies of Winston and Julia about the Party, the brotherhood, or another significant topic.  Explain the implication of your chosen quote(s).  Do not use the same quote as any other classmate.  Due: 3/16.

LoveNext, reply to two of your classmates’ comments, furthering the discussion; it’s not enough to simply agree–you must add something new to that discussion: thoughtful questioning, polite disagreeing, or detailed extension of the original idea.  Due 3/17.

Everyone should post his/her initial comment first, read all comments before replying to one; then allow wait time again before you make your final reply.  Due 3/18.

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44 responses to “Novel Discussion Board #2: 1984 Part 2

  • Collin Falloway

    Winston – “Has it ever occurred to you that the best thing thing for us to do would be simply to walk out of here before it’s too late, and never see each other again?”

    Julia – “Yes, dead, it has occured to me, several times. But I’m not going to do it, all the same.”

    These two quotes show the completely different ideologies between the two individuals. Winston yearns to exist in an environment that is significantly more free than the one he lives in, where as Julia doesn’t particularly mind so long as she’s safe. To me, this seems like Winston is much more empathetic than Julia, because Winston desires to change something where as Julia is apathetic.

    • Brooke Schell

      I agree. While Winston just wants to get away from it all, Julia does not care if she is safe. Winston is more gullible to the things happening around him as Julia sees things as they actually are. Everything they say shows how their thoughts differ and really shows their personality. When Julia says things like, “Not the Thought Police! You didn’t honestly think that?” it shows how aware she really is and her different beliefs when it comes to Winston. He is naive and it is shown when he says things like, “If you really want to know, I imagined that you had something to do with the Thought Police.”

      • Collin Falloway

        Winston is the antithesis of Julia, but on the opposite side of the spectrum. He really desires to exist in the world as a free individual, even desiring the simple things such as fruit, saying things like “I remember lemons, they were quite common in the Fifties…” Winston seems to have the memory of what it is to be free, unlike Julia.

  • Megan Warren

    “In the ramifications of the Party doctrine she had not the faintest interest.” (p. 156) shows that Winston and Julia have very different feelings towards the Party. Winston seems to disagree with the Party and is fascinated by the workings of it, while Julia couldn’t care less, despite going against them. It is interesting, since Julia actually seems to be going against them more so than Winston is.
    “From her breathing it was evident that she was going off to sleep again.” (p. 164) In this quote, it is once again apparent how little Julia actually cares about the workings of the Party. Winston at this time is talking about his mother, growing more and more internally upset, but Julia cannot muster up the care to continue listening to him. It suggests that the difference in their ages has led to this gap, as Winston used to have a family he cared about before the Party, and Julia didn’t to the same extent.

    • Sierra Maddox

      I agree that Julia does not care much about what the party does because of her age. She has never lived in a world without the party, so it is easier for her to accept what the party does and not give it a second thought.People her age “simply swallowed everything, and what they swallowed did no harm, because it let no residue behind” (p.156) She has no past emotions or experiences that could make her dwell on the issue too long.

  • galtea

    “Its always one bloody war after another, and one knows the news is all lies anyway.” When Winston and Julia first meet, they soon talk about their own ideas of the party. Julia had stated that she doesn’t think the war is even happening, while Winston, on the other hand, had never thought of this idea and it shows how differently both of them think. Winston buys into the propaganda and is easy to manipulate while Julia chose to believe herself. Julia seems to not care about the falsifications that the Party claims to have done, she just blows them off.

    • Lauren Widner

      Julia does impact Winston’s thoughts about the government by arguing that the government keeps power by many different tactics and to ‘just to keep the people frightened.’

    • Will Foreman

      How does one government leave its citizens to run in the dark and question the livelihood of their existence?

      • Lauren Williams

        1. This ^ does not sound like Will.
        2. I would say that the two are on the same plane, but in different quadrants (math reference 😉 Both Julia and Winston are against the Party. They are against its teachings and find pride in its rebellion. However, Julia has a different perspective on their roles in society, and what they should do about something they both disagree with. Julia does not have confidence that much can be done. She finds joy in rebelling because she detests the reigning government. Winston also detests the party and its teachings but also wishes to fight against it instead of simply rebelling and dodging the repercussions. Julia is like the child that only sees her point of view and maintains a cynical, distrusting outlook towards the Party at all time, whereas Winston often considers the positive , which I believe is fueled by his “feelings.”

      • Hannah Goldman

        Lauren is right in saying Julia is more childlike. She is so quick to dodge the rules, but even quicker to play along and follow the rules when the leader is around. She thinks of herself as special and above the other mindless people so she shouldn’t have to follow the rules. At the same time, she doesn’t actually want to change them, she just wants to avoid them. Winston is more mature and while he also feels like he should be able to avoid the rules, he wants them to be gone for everyone. Julia just wants them to be gone for her.

  • Lauren Widner

    “His first feeling was relief, but as he watched the strong slender body moving in front of him, with the scarlet sash that was just tight enough to bring out the curve of her hips, the sense of his own inferiority was heavy upon him.” (p.118) This quote is very important because it describes already the physical differences between the two characters. Winston is obviously an older man that does not view him self to be as young as Julia, whereas Julia is the epitome of youth and strength. Throughout this chapter, Winston doubts their physical compatibility due to him being much older and the memories that he speaks about multiple times through out the chapter that he remembers before the war and Julia was either not born yet or was too small to remember life before the rebellion.

    • Caitlin Adams

      The physical differences become even ore apparent when he describes himself as “thirty-nine years old…[with] varicose veins…[and] five false teeth,” but uses phrases such as “youthful body” to describe Julia. (p.120) He even goes on to say during their time in the fields that her prettiness scares him. His fear clearly highlights how different he believes the two of them are, and proves the differences also.

    • Tara Galloway

      I agree with this statement. In the beginning of the book we get a description of Winston’s appearance of having fair hair, sanguine face, and coarse skin. We also get to see the routine of Winston, showing habits like drinking gin and smoking cigarettes. these habits have a big affect on Winston appearance. In part 2, Julia and Winston start to become more comfortable with each other whereas before he was ”too much ashamed of his pale and meager body, with the varicose veins standing out on his calves…” (126). He couldn’t help but notice how young and lustful Julia was compared to him .

  • Brianna Boswell

    “He wondered vaguely how many others like her there might be in the younger generation – people who had grown up in the world of the Revolution, knowing nothing else, accepting the Party as something unalterable, like the sky, not rebelling against its authority but simply evading it, as a rabbit dodges a dog.” Winston has cloudy memories of his life before the Party, with his mother, father, and sister, while Julia knows nothing other than the Party and everything that comes with it. Winston’s memory of what life was like before makes him want to rebel against the Party, and not simply evade it, like Julia and her generation do.

    • Jack Dees

      I agree with you when you say Julia only knows the party because that’s all she’s ever had, but i don’t think she necessarily evades it instead of rebelling against them. She in her own personal way rebels against the party that allows her not to get caught. Others may see this as evading trouble, but i look at it as her own way of coping with the party’s harsh restrictions. I think she wants to rebel but knows she cannot do it alone, so she finds ways in her mind to rebel without getting caught. Also Winston’s thoughts on life before the party definitely makes him question the life he’s living now. He doesn’t really know what his life is anymore and i think he is more curious instead of actually wanting to rebel against the party. He doesn’t want to get caught, just like Julia, but he knows that his whole life has been a lie and there is so much more out there for him than what the party has told him and many others to be for so long. Even though these responses are supposed to point out differences between the two, don’t you think Winston and Julia are somewhat similar in this aspect?

      • Zac Evans

        I think Brianna is right. I think Winston wants the whole of humanity to be free, whereas Julia only wants to be with Winston and be free of the party. She cares little for what happens to others, so long as she is happy. This difference is apparent in Winston’s enthusiasm for The Brotherhood, and Julia’s lack thereof. Winston longs to be apart of something larger than himself, while Julia only concerns herself with what immediately affects her.

  • Jack Dees

    “There had been no difficulties about the journey, and the girl was so evidently experienced that he was less frightened than he would normally have been. Presumably she could be trusted to find a safe place. In general you could not assume that you were much safer in the country than in London”.
    This quote shows that Julia is much more experienced and knowledgeable about things happening in London. She knows certain spots that her and Winston would be safe at and out of the watch of the governemnt. It shows that she is much more rebellious than Winston is because she has gone out of her way before to find these spots to personally rebel. Winston is innocent to say the least and all of this is new to him. Julia is introducing this new side to him.

    • Collin Falloway

      I disagree to a point. I don’t believe that Winston is necessarily innocent, he is a thought criminal down to his every fiber. He might not act on his actions to its fullest potential, but he definitely defies the government when he decides to write in his diary in the very beginning. Winston is just as rebellious as Julia, but he is a lot more reserved about it.

    • Brianna Boswell

      I don’t think that Julia is actually rebelling when she goes to the spots where the Party can’t watch her. According to chapter three in book two, Julia is “simply evading” the Party. She doesn’t want to rise up against the Party like Winston does. Julia just wants to be happy and must break the rules in order to feel that way.

    • Caitlin Adams

      Julia shows to be more concerned with outwardly going against party rules. Julia has taken the time to learn these places and ingrain them in her everyday life, which becomes evident when she so flawlessly gives Winston direction to the field. It shows experience and comfort. Winston on the other hand seems to be less comfortable with the obvious rule breaking. Instead he chooses ways that are difficult to notice and catch, like buying the pen and writing in the journal.

    • Brooke Schell

      Julia is more aware of the surroundings and isn’t so gullible while Winston on the other hand is. Julia does not want to stand against the party but she feels as if going against them is the only way for her to be happy.

  • Hannah Goldman

    “The fragment of coral, a tiny crinkle of fink like a sugar rosebud from a cake, rolled across the mat. How small, thought Winston, how small it always was!” This quote really shows Winston’s image of love, and how in the hands of the Party it really is nothing. All it takes is one official to throw it away for it to be crushed and unusable. Yet it also shows how much it matters to him personally because losing it that quickly and easily had such an effect on him. While the next quote is Winston’s internal thoughts on the subject, it says something of Julia’s. Winston shows that she engages in sex for the act of rebellion by thinking, “Scores of times she had done it: he wished it had been hundreds – thousands. Anything that hinted at corruption always filled him with a wild hope. ” When Winston legitimately fell in love with her, and spoke of evading politics and actually doing something to stop the oppression she ignored him and slept. She is only interested in love for the sex and rebellion, but not even so much as to want to rebel in any more public fashion. She wants love because she cant have it, and Winston wants it because he truly feels he cannot live without it.

    • Zac Evans

      I disagree with your statement about Winston wanting love because he cannot live without it (to a degree). I think, based on his beliefs, expressed in part three, Winston believes, to some degree, that he is entitled to love. He considers himself “morally superior” to the party, as well as believing that the “spirit of man” has the ability to overcome The Party’s oppression (270). I think Winston might feel a need to feel love, but I feel more strongly that he has a certain sense of entitlement to love.

  • Brooke Schell

    “”I hated the sight of you,” he said. “I wanted to rape you and then murder you afterwards. Two weeks ago I thought seriously smashing your head in with a cobblestone. If you really want to know, I imagined that you had something to do with the Thought Police.” The girl laughed delightedly, evidently taking this as a tribute to the excellence of her disguise. “Not the Thought Police! You didn’t honestly think that?” “Well, perhaps, not exactly that. But from your general appearance–merely because you’re young and fresh and healthy, you understand–I thought that probably–” This shows how naive Winston is and how aware Julia is. It shows the difference between them when the satire of “Not the Thought Police!” quote comes in. That because she is young and healthy, she knows more about the situation than he does even though he is very knowledgeable about the party.

    • Lauren Widner

      I agree that there is a dramatic age difference between Winston and Julia especially when she says , “..I wonder what a lemon was.” however winston recalls what a lemon even tastes like, “i can remember lemons, they were quite common in the fifties.”

    • Will Foreman

      I agree that Winston seems immature to the Party in the sense that he is not aware of the Party as much as Julia even though she is younger than him.

  • Sierra Maddox

    1.)Winston- “I don;t imagine that we can alter anything in our own lifetime. But one can imagine little knots of resistance springing up here and there—-small groups of people bonding themselves together , and gradually growing , and even leaving a few records behind, so that the next generation can carry on where we leave off.
    Julia-“I’m not interested in the next generation, dear. I’m interested in us.

    It seems Julia believes she can go against the party’s rules and succeed and live a good life. However Winston believes breaking the rules will eventually lead to their defeat.

    • Sierra Maddox

      *Revision*
      1.)Winston- “I don’t imagine that we can alter anything in our own lifetime. But one can imagine little knots of resistance springing up here and there—-small groups of people bonding themselves together , and gradually growing , and even leaving a few records behind, so that the next generation can carry on where we leave off.”
      Julia-“I’m not interested in the next generation, dear. I’m interested in us.”
      2.)Winston-“Only because I prefer a positive to a negative. In this game that we’re playing, we can’t win. Some kinds of failure are better than other kinds, that’s all.”
      He felt her shoulders give a wriggle of dissent…she believed that it was somehow possible to construct a secret world in which you could live as you chose. All you needed was luck and cunning and boldness.
      While both Winston and Julia are enjoying each others’ company, Julia believes she can go against the party’s rules and succeed and live a good life. She doesn’t want to make an impact on society. The whole situation is much more personnel for her. However Winston seems to believe if they are going to break the rules they should be doing it to inspire change, even though he knows if they were to do so they would eventually be defeated in some way and have to rely on the inspiration they gave people for change to occur.

      • Lauren Williams

        I agree that Julia is not looking to the future. She does not consider leaving a legacy behind when she dies.She is living for the now and delights in the action of rebellion in order to live the life she wants to live. She doesn’t believe that actual change can happen, and is not even inspired to change the ugly society in which she lives, but instead to manipulate it and “slide” under the watchful eyes of the Party. On the other hand, Winston aspires to go against the Party in order to, in the end, change society for the better. Winston wants to do something about the problem and not simply disobey the rules like Julia.

  • Caitlin Adams

    “Where did you get this stuff?” he said.
    “Black market,” she said indifferently. “Actually I am that sort of girl, to look at. I’m good at games. I was a troop leader in the spies. I do voluntary work…I always look cheerful…it’s the only way to be safe.”
    This quote shows how truly innocent Winston is and how Julia is the exact opposite–conniving, manipulative, and experienced. Winston is unaware of how to play the “game.” He is not concerned with it, instead he just wants to gain the freedoms the Party denies him. Julia, on the other hand, is into manipulating the system, putting on a show for the Party. She seems to be more interested in the manipulation than the actual reason for manipulating.

    • Brianna Boswell

      I agree with you about Julia. She likes to ignore the authority of the Party, but I don’t think she is ignoring the rules to rebel. I think she just likes the fact that she can get away with it.

    • highal58

      I do believe that Julia commits the rebellious act because she can, but i also believe that she wishes for a better lifestyle and society. If an uprising were certain to be successful against the party, I think she would be interested and participate it. I don’t believe she is careless about having no freedom, however I agree that she intentionally manipulates the system while she can and while change seems hopeless.

  • Zac Evans

    “‘If you mean confessing,’ she said, ‘we shall do that, right enough. Everybody always confesses. You can’t help it. They torture you.”
    ‘I don’t mean confessing. Confession is not betrayal. What you say or do doesn’t matter; only feelings matter. If they could make me stop loving you–that would be the real betrayal.'”

    This excerpt of dialogue displays the differences in depth in which Winston and Julia think, thus displaying differences in their two generations. Winston is a very complex, deep thinking person, that refuses to see anything for just its face value. He refuses to accept anything The Party tells him. Whereas Julia is only concerned with “important” maters that only affect her.

    “‘You are prepared, the two of you, to separate and never see one another again?’
    ‘No!’ broke in Julia.
    It appeared to Winston that a long time passed before he answered. For a moment he seemed even to have been deprived of the power of speech. His tongue worked soundlessly, forming the opening syllables first of one word, then of the other, over and over again. Until he had said it, he did not know which word he was going to say.”

    Winston’s struggling with trying to decide between Julia and The Brotherhood, compared to Julia’s immediate response, displays the differences between Winston and Julia’s dedication to one-another compared to their dedication to The Brotherhood. Winston values The Brotherhood almost as much as he values Julia, as it represents a chance for freedom from The Party, even though he knows his works will probably not produce any tangible progress in his lifetime. However, Julia is not nearly as concerned with The Brotherhood, as their actions will likely not produce results until long after she has passed away, therefore, it has no immediate impact on her life.

    • Hannah Goldman

      I agree because because Julia also says she is “good at games… a troop leader in the spies[,does] voluntary work…[looks] cheerful…[because] it’s the only way to be safe.” She doesn’t want to defeat the Party, she wants to evade it and be safe from it. How could she be committed to the Brotherhood if she doesn’t truly want to overthrow anything? She thinks she can evade the rules until the inevitable fate of death, but sees no point in trying to escape that fate because her generation has never known anything but the Party and therefore cannot see themselves living without it. Winston knows what real life is like and will always be more committed to something that could bring it back.

  • Lauren Williams

    “But she only questioned the teachings of the Party when they in some way touched upon her own life. Often she was ready to accept the official mythology, simply because the difference between truth and falsehood did not seem important to her.”
    This was an excerpt of Winston’s thoughts about Julia.
    Winston clearly states that Julia thinks differently about the Party and its falsifying of records. Winston believes that the loss of history is an extraordinary problem, and is able to understand how the loss of all true history will affect a society. Julia doesn’t really care nor mind that the Party is destroying all true history. She believes everything said by the Party is “rubbish” anyway, so she doesn’t understand why the destruction of something that does not affect her now should be of concern.

    • Will Foreman

      I believe Julia is also lost in her place in Oceania ; she does not know any better than to play dumb

    • Megan Warren

      Julia, as a member of a younger generation that Winston, does not see The Party the same way Winston does. I agree with your reasoning, and I see Julia’s lack of concern about The Party to be mainly due to her young age and lack of experiences outside of the reign of The Party. Winston and Julia each grew up during different times and knew different things since childhood, which is most likely the biggest reason for their differing viewpoints.

    • highal58

      I agree with your statement, Lauren. In fact I chose a similar topic. I believe that Julia has different concerns with the Party than Winston. She is more concerned with the big, significant problems, such as the bogus war between Oceana and Eastasia. Winston focuses more on the falsification of documents, as you noted. In fact, he is quite fascinated by it. Julia seems like she could care less.

  • Will Foreman

    “They were sitting side by side on the dusty floor. He pulled her closer against him. Her head rested on his shoulder, the pleasant smell of her hair conquering the pigeon dung. She was very young, he thought, she still expected something from life, she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing. Winston clearly had a different outlook on life than Julia. He was a mature, thriving human being and she was insecure about most things.Winston values life because he has seen more evil than Julia has and how short life can last. This excerpt shows how different Winston and Julia’s outlook on life was.

  • Jack Dees

    I take this quote and think that Winston is trying to say Julia has no clue what the future is going to bring to her. Because he is older than her he feels more experienced with living in the world ran by the party, and also because he lived before the party existed. I agree with you when you say his outlook on life was different then Julia’s but I don’t think he’s seen more evil than her. If anything he’s seen less evil since he lived before the party existed when life was pleasant. I think this passage is trying to suggest that Julia is young and is oblivious to the way life used to be. Winston doesn’t know much about pre party life, but he knows there definitely was a difference in the quality of life then.

    • Andrea Paczkowski

      I agree, the fact that Julia does not know that life used to be satisfying affects her willingness to join the rebellion as Winston wishes to do.

  • highal58

    The idea that the Party fakes documents intrigues Winston, but he isn’t willing to give up the whole belief that they lie about basically everything. Julia, on the other hand, seems to disregard all of the individual lies delivered by the Party, but she does believe that the Party is bogus.She points out that the war seems to arbitrarily change from being between Oceana and Eastasia to being between Oceana and Eurasia, however Winston is unable to accept this significant concept without proof. Winston struggles with his decision to part with evidence proving that the Party had lied about three men, but Julia is unconcerned about their fate. She announces, “I’m quite ready to take risks, but only for something worthwhile, not for bits of old newspaper.” Julia is ready and willing to take a stand against the Party, but only is a successful outcome can be guaranteed. Winston states that Julia is uninterested in understanding Party ideology.

    • Andrea Paczkowski

      I agree, Julia has no knowledge of Oceania before the party gained control, she was born and raised by the Party, the only knowledge she has of Oceania before the Party she got from her grandfather and now from Winston. Julia is not willing to rebel without guaranteed success because she has nothing to work towards, she does not have the memories to use as a guideline as Winston does.

  • Andrea Paczkowski

    Winston has memories of the past, and can remember the changes that Oceania went through, while Julia was born in the current society and has no knowledge of the past. Since Winston remembers what life was like before the Party gained control, he wants the current society to revert back to its old ways, Julia has a hatred for the Party like Winston, but since she ” saw it was quite simple,” she grew up in those conditions and did not want change, she was fine living that way and ” breaking the rules as best as she could.” The age difference between the two causes opposing beliefs and opinions.

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